I'm learning how to setup Winscore for a local club fun contest. So far it makes sense, but setting up the Finish Cylinder is a bit confusing. How do I set it up for a 500' agl min finish height? The finish settings have settings for the Top and Base of the Finish Gate Cylinder, both in ft MSL.

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, 19 June 2012 06:07:12 UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
> I'm learning how to setup Winscore for a local club fun contest. So far it makes sense, but setting up the Finish Cylinder is a bit confusing. How do I set it up for a 500' agl min finish height? The finish settings have settings for the Top and Base of the Finish Gate Cylinder, both in ft MSL.
>
> Kirk
> 66

I have always ignored the Top of the Finish Gate Cylinder parameter and just filled in 10000. There is nothing in the rules governing limiting the height of a valid finish, except of course the 17,500 MSL contest maximum.

For the minimum finish height simply enter the altitude level, ground level plus 500 for your example, you desire. If your finish point is 1000 MSL then you would enter 1500 in the finish height.

As a rule of thumb for a minimum altitude of 500 AGL the cylinder would be no more than a 1 mile radius, allowing for a valid finish, a potential pull up and the ability to enter a normal landing pattern.

If you want a larger cylinder, say 2 miles, you should adjust the minimum altitude by 200.

While there is no explanation of these parameters within the WINSCORE users manual there is a good write up in Appendix A, Section A 10.9.2 of the rules book. The illustrations are also excellent

They state

- It is strongly recommended that the cylinder be centered on the home field, so that all pilots are an equal distance from home when they
finish.
- The radius should be one or two miles. Even the smaller of these give a lot of separation between gliders finishing from different directions.
- The minimum finish height should be chosen so that finishers have no trouble flying a reasonably normal landing pattern. 500' should be the
minimum for a one-mile-radius cylinder; 800' would work for a 2-mile cylinder. (These might have to be higher for a contest with lowperformance
gliders, or with the possibility of very strong winds.)
- Pilots missing the bottom of the cylinder recieve a graduated penalty Rule 12.1.4.5. The size of this penalty is calibrated to make an "honest
mistake" of 50-100 feet low cost (i.e the same 10-20 points that a rolling finish previously cost).

Good luck with your local club fun contest

Ron Gleason

On Tuesday, June 19, 2012 5:07:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> I'm learning how to setup Winscore for a local club fun contest. So far it makes sense, but setting up the Finish Cylinder is a bit confusing. How do I set it up for a 500' agl min finish height? The finish settings have settings for the Top and Base of the Finish Gate Cylinder, both in ft MSL.
>
> Kirk
> 66

Kirk,
You may want to consider a finish cylinder base at 700AGL/1sm + 200'/sm if bigger. You do not want to tempt someone to start thermalling at 300' at the edge of the cylinder so they get a speed finish.
QT
QT

> Kirk,
> You may want to consider a finish cylinder base at 700AGL/1sm + 200'/sm if bigger. You do not want to tempt someone to start thermalling at 300' at the edge of the cylinder so they get a speed finish.
> QT

why would raising the minimum finish height discourage low altitude thermalling in that situation? actually it seems to me that the only finish height adjustment that would discourage low altitude thermalling in that situation would be to lower the finish height!

On Jun 19, 7:07*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:
> I'm learning how to setup Winscore for a local club fun contest. *So far it makes sense, but setting up the Finish Cylinder is a bit confusing. *How do I set it up for a 500' agl min finish height? The finish settings have settings for the Top and Base of the Finish Gate Cylinder, both in ft MSL.
>
> Kirk
> 66

I agree with advice to use substantially more than 500 feet especially
for a local fun club contest. This is not the moment for guys to start
thinking about maccready zero glides with 300' AGL margins. Arriving
high also gives time for a proper pattern. This is not the moment to
learn to do a fast contest buttonhook.

Winscore sets it in MSL because the rules set it in MSL. Rules set in
MSL because pilots altimeters should be set in MSL.

So, start with maybe 700 AGL, then round up to the nearest convenient
easy-to-remember MSL height.

For our local contest, finish airports vary from 600 to 800 feet, so
we use 1500' MSL at one mile.

As others pointed out, top is not part of current rules, so just set
it high and ignore it.

Have fun! I also use winscore to score our local contest, and it's a
good low stress introduction to using the program.

John Cochrane

Ron, John,

Thanks for the quick replies. Makes sense, and pretty much what I figured it meant.

I'm familiar with the rules on finishes - and will probably use a 700'/1 mile finish for the good reasons you suggest.

Although I'd prefer to use a 50' line finish...just like the good old days!

I assume Winscore handles the low finish penalty automatically? Again, I didn't find it described in the Winscore manual.

Or how to handle starts out the top of the cylinder.

Well, it'll be a learning experience being on this side of the scoring desk for a change...

Thanks,

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, 19 June 2012 08:47:11 UTC-6, kirk.stant wrote:
> Ron, John,
>
> Thanks for the quick replies. Makes sense, and pretty much what I figured it meant.
>
> I'm familiar with the rules on finishes - and will probably use a 700'/1 mile finish for the good reasons you suggest.
>
> Although I'd prefer to use a 50' line finish...just like the good old days!
>
> I assume Winscore handles the low finish penalty automatically? Again, I didn't find it described in the Winscore manual.
>
> Or how to handle starts out the top of the cylinder.
>
> Well, it'll be a learning experience being on this side of the scoring desk for a change...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Kirk
> 66

Kirk, the two scenarios you mention can be the most labor intensive with WINSCORE. WINSCORE provides you with the data and you must review the options and determine what is best for the pilot.

The finish penalty - Under FLIGHT LOGS you will see if any warnings have been generated. Review the warning and if one is a finish penalty WS will tell you and recommend a specific penalty value. If you choose to use that value you select 'Adjust Scores and Apply Penalties' Option, the hammer icon on tool bar, select Task Point Penalty, type in the value and make the reason code FP.

Starts out the top - WS does a decent job here but it requires a review to make sure it has chosen the best start. If the person exits out the top and then goes on course all is good. However if the pilot exited the start cylinder, came back in and went out the top (more than once) the start time should be reviewed. This is accomplished by select the flight log for the pilot and right click and choose EDIT. Choose the 'Select Alternate Start Time' button and WS will show you the different options available and what the effect on the score will be.

The 3rd area where WS needs help is with MAT's. WS does a good job determining what TP's were accomplished but may not get the best speed. Each flight will need to be reviewed based on what the pilot submits.

All in all WS does a great job.

Ron

On Tuesday, June 19, 2012 5:07:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> I'm learning how to setup Winscore for a local club fun contest. So far it makes sense, but setting up the Finish Cylinder is a bit confusing. How do I set it up for a 500' agl min finish height? The finish settings have settings for the Top and Base of the Finish Gate Cylinder, both in ft MSL.
>
> Kirk
> 66



On Tuesday, June 19, 2012 5:07:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> I'm learning how to setup Winscore for a local club fun contest. So far it makes sense, but setting up the Finish Cylinder is a bit confusing. How do I set it up for a 500' agl min finish height? The finish settings have settings for the Top and Base of the Finish Gate Cylinder, both in ft MSL.
>
> Kirk
> 66

Winscore handles the finish penalty correctly and also starts out the top of the cylinder. However, be aware that if the latest start gets a penalty it may be possible to avoid the penalty (at the cost of slower speed) by choosing an earlier start. Winscore helps with this in the "Edit" function.

QT

On Jun 19, 10:50*am, Ron Gleason > wrote:

>Starts out the top - WS does a decent job here but it requires a review to make >sure it has chosen the best start.

Don't agree with that. WS does not provide the best solution for a
SOT that re-enters the cylinder. WS can never give the best solution
in this case because penalties are not applied automatically. The
start solution that is provided is the one that gives best points
before the penalty is applied.

In my opinion WS should always apply the computed penalty but provide
an alert to the scorer that a penalty has been applied.


Andy

On Tuesday, 19 June 2012 11:50:27 UTC-6, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
> On Tuesday, June 19, 2012 5:07:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > I'm learning how to setup Winscore for a local club fun contest. So far it makes sense, but setting up the Finish Cylinder is a bit confusing. How do I set it up for a 500' agl min finish height? The finish settings have settings for the Top and Base of the Finish Gate Cylinder, both in ft MSL..
> >
> > Kirk
> > 66
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, June 19, 2012 5:07:12 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
> > I'm learning how to setup Winscore for a local club fun contest. So far it makes sense, but setting up the Finish Cylinder is a bit confusing. How do I set it up for a 500' agl min finish height? The finish settings have settings for the Top and Base of the Finish Gate Cylinder, both in ft MSL..
> >
> > Kirk
> > 66
>
> Winscore handles the finish penalty correctly and also starts out the top of the cylinder. However, be aware that if the latest start gets a penalty it may be possible to avoid the penalty (at the cost of slower speed) by choosing an earlier start. Winscore helps with this in the "Edit" function.
>
> QT

What John said. WS does handle the finish correctly if the pilot is more than 300 feet below MFH and produces a warning stated that the flight was scored as a rolling finish and the flight is tagged as 'incomplete'

>This is not the moment to
> learn to do a fast contest buttonhook.

>

>
> John Cochrane

is a fast contest button hook a safe maneuver to do at any time?

freeflying OR contest finish.

Thanks,
Brad

On Jun 19, 10:50*am, Ron Gleason > wrote:
>
> The 3rd area where WS needs help is with MAT's. *WS does a good job determining what TP's were accomplished but may not get the best speed. *Each flight will need to be reviewed based on what the pilot submits.

One quick follow-up to this: Winscore *is* a good tool overall; but I
have also seen it guess MATs wrong when it auto-claims a TP a second
time, without the pilot visiting two other TPs before returning to the
earlier TP. For example, "9, 26, 40, 26, 18" - which is not valid
since the pilot returned to TP 26 too soon. The correct MAT claim
would be "9, 26, 40, 18". Or perhaps "9, 26, 40, XX, 26 ,18" where
"XX" is some TP that Winscore missed - or, more likely, a TP where the
pilot barely nicked the 1sm cylinder and didn't get a valid GPS fix in
before leaving the cylinder.

Also, the recent rules-change for low finishes may not be fully
incorporated into Winscore... I ran into a situation last week where
Winscore applied a "rolling finish" to my task/score because I came
home about 400 feet below the gate (rain at 4 miles out washed me
down)... But the new finish rules stipulated I should be marked as a
landout, no rolling finish allowed. It took a bit of fiddling with
Winscore to get it right (partly because 9 of 12 pilots in our class
didn't make it home due to the weather, so the day was devalued and I
had the longest distance with my pseudo-finish so the calcs got
wonky).

But for the vast majority of circumstances, Winscore gets it right.

--Noel

On Tuesday, 19 June 2012 12:53:33 UTC-6, noel.wade wrote:
> On Jun 19, 10:50*am, Ron Gleason > wrote:
> >
> > The 3rd area where WS needs help is with MAT's. *WS does a good job determining what TP's were accomplished but may not get the best speed. *Each flight will need to be reviewed based on what the pilot submits.
>
> One quick follow-up to this: Winscore *is* a good tool overall; but I
> have also seen it guess MATs wrong when it auto-claims a TP a second
> time, without the pilot visiting two other TPs before returning to the
> earlier TP. For example, "9, 26, 40, 26, 18" - which is not valid
> since the pilot returned to TP 26 too soon. The correct MAT claim
> would be "9, 26, 40, 18". Or perhaps "9, 26, 40, XX, 26 ,18" where
> "XX" is some TP that Winscore missed - or, more likely, a TP where the
> pilot barely nicked the 1sm cylinder and didn't get a valid GPS fix in
> before leaving the cylinder.
>
> Also, the recent rules-change for low finishes may not be fully
> incorporated into Winscore... I ran into a situation last week where
> Winscore applied a "rolling finish" to my task/score because I came
> home about 400 feet below the gate (rain at 4 miles out washed me
> down)... But the new finish rules stipulated I should be marked as a
> landout, no rolling finish allowed. It took a bit of fiddling with
> Winscore to get it right (partly because 9 of 12 pilots in our class
> didn't make it home due to the weather, so the day was devalued and I
> had the longest distance with my pseudo-finish so the calcs got
> wonky).
>
> But for the vast majority of circumstances, Winscore gets it right.
>
> --Noel

What Noel says - WS get the vast majority of situations correct. What we are talking about here are the exceptions. WS has all the data and tools within it to assist the scorer and CD in determining the best way to handle these situation(s).